That's not the first time Nana has gone against "such" people. Neither is it the first time he has got into such trouble. There was the recent case where he had threatened a car driver on the road for driving "rashly". It was alleged that he had even pulled out a revolver (a licensed one). On the other hand, the recent case where another godman Narendra Maharaj was not allowed to take his "holy staff" aboard a plane may have prompted Nana to speak against them again.
Now, the very first point of argument against Nana's statement is that he seems to be against "fake godmen". Does this mean that he is alright with the "real godmen"? If so, what is it that differentiates "fake godmen" from "real godmen"? And how does he know that Asharam Bapu, Anirudhha Bapu and Narendra Maharaj are "fake"? Has he met them ever? That is something that should be thought over.
But, coming back to the case filed against Nana, the "devotee" (one Mr. Ulhas Kulkarni) gives very nice arguments and (as you shall make out by the end of this posting), I fully support these godmen ("fake" or "real"). Mr. Ulhas goes to the extent of criticising Bollywood and how they are not doing any good either by projecting and promoting "prevesity and obscenity". Right on dot, Mr. Ulhas and congratulations for taking a courageous step. It takes guts to fight anyone from Bollywood. These days even script writers of useless soaps and serials are pretending to be great. (These days if you are not connected in any way with Bollywood or her sister "Telewood", then you are an "insignificant person".)
Time and again one has heard of countless arguments against these "godmen". Send these people to me...nirvana guaranteed. These arguments are often referred to as "FUD" (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) in the Open Source world. For example, private software companies try to create a FUD in the minds of CEOs/CIOs/other vulnerable people regarding how open source software can destroy the industry, etc. But, we will not get into that. The FUD here, is against the godmen. Lets take a look at some of the arguments that one hears:
- These "godmen" mislead people and take favours from them (money, other worldly desires, etc.)
- These "godmen" show people some magic tricks and get people to treat them like god.
- These "godmen" encourage people to have "blind faith" and believe in superstitions.
There are many more, I am sure. But, for every argument raised here, I can assure you that I'll have an equally unanswerable counter-argument. One single point is easy to demolish all this:
Let one who has not sinned cast the first stone
Argument over. Go home! Not convinced. Let's try to answer the above points one by one.
Point #1. : What do you mean by "mislead"? Show me one actor, politician, businessman, builder who does not mislead? What about people who show off their status and money to seek sexual favors from women and then dump them? Are they not in the same category?
Point #2: Treating people like god is nothing new. Some people come all the way from Allahabad to Mumbai to see their "gods" (like Amitabh). Pity they don't even have time to visit their local temple. But, who are the gods? And what good have these guys done to merit such status anyway? They have "acted" well in a blockbuster. (Isn't "acting" related to "falsely portraying one's true self"? Isn't it the same as "misleading"?)
Point #3: Ah! the whiff of "blind faith". We'll have dozen people (including the so-called "human rights activists") crawling all over soon. What exactly is "blind faith"? I say if one has reposed complete faith so as not to question his "god", then that is his/her personal judgement. Why do you have to interfere?
In a much broader perspective, so what if the "godmen" do "bad" things? Gosh if they had got it all right and were perfect, they would be right up there, with "God". Surely, they are not worse than the corrupt lot of actors and politicians. Look at their positive side: as long as they preach people to do good things, so be it. And if people go to "bad godmen", then no one has asked them to go there. They are not bound by any bond to be going to that guy. And if they do so, they are doing it because they get some inner peace.
Ah! I know. These actors...they are probably getting jealous. How dare people worship other gods when they are still around? Well, this is the age of competition. So, grow up and fight back (in the same competitive spirit). Not by asking people to beat the devotees and put "chappals" around the godmens' necks. And, not by creating FUD in the people's minds against these.
Oh maybe its because Nana had to face a lot of incovenience because of thousands of devotees gathered for some satsang. Maybe that's why he is so upset. But, wait. Weren't there some real innocent people incovenienced because of Amitabh's stay in the hospital? And what about those useless film shootings that are held on public roads? No one dare say anything against them, then.
Truly this is the age of Kali. Where to even preach good is considered bad. Where heroes now are those who can only "act" well.
Thanks, Mr. Patekar. You have opened our eyes. We still have a lot of work to do.
10 comments:
I dont have any soft corner for Nana and will stand right next to you when you do all the bollywood bashing. But I would definitely have my opinions regarding the "God-Men".
The very foundation of the existance of these Godmen is FUD. Its the FUD about Paap-Punya, what happens when you die?, is there re-birth? its the concept of God who punishes wrong deeds which keeps pushing loads of people to these Godmen. And the Godmen perform their role perfectly to spread the FUD. People feel guilty about the wrong deeds and to get rid of this guilty conscious approach the godmen. A visit to shirdy (or put your favorite name here) and your conscious is clean. with a clean slate you can continue doing wrong deeds as normal. By looking at the number of followers these godmen has one might think the country should be free of all the bad things soon. But that does not seem to be the case. People are doing wrong more and following godmen more to clean it. Personally I dont have anything against godmen if all they do is to ask people to act good. But that is not the case. Almost each of these godmen is surrounded by some sort of financial controversy. Even Shankaracharya is accused of murder over financial matters. (Well I know you are innocent till declared guilty. That way Mohammad Afroz is also innocent. but there is smoke if there is fire).
The comment posted said the existence of godmen is FUD.
Sorry, by the same logic Open Source philosophy can also be called as FUD. What about the fear created that if you use proprietary software then it may soon leave you stranded, etc. All that is trying to create "fear" too. Think about it.
And in that sense, any teaching is FUD. What about cleanliness habits? That is FUD too.
Another point in the comment:
If there are so many godmen and so many followers, then why is there still so much trouble in the country.
The straight forward answer is that now there are more people on the "other" side than on "this" side. They are getting converted, but it will take time.
You know this is very strange: in "weakly law-enforced" countries like India, it is only spirituality that is holding the people together. Indians are past the "law-abiding" stage; only spirituality can keep them sane.
Another point in the comment is related to controversy.
That was exactly one of the points I had mentioned in the original post. And that is what I mean: at least they are doing better than the others. Everyone is involved in some sin or the other - why blame those who are doing good?
On the other hand, I had decided to investigate first hand and I'll post my experiences soon. They have been anything, but what people say/feel/think.
Another point in the comment is related to visiting holy places.
The contention of the point is that people visit holy places to wash off the sins and then go back and continue doing that.
That is just a misnomer. Theoretically it is possible. But practically, it is the opposite. Once one has visited these places, they have to think a bit more to commit such sin again. Slowly, but surely, they will be refined. For some, it is the first visit. But, for people who have been habituated to the sin for long, it obviously takes longer. But, it will get them there.
In addition, if people are kept busy in visiting these places, they won't have time to commit the sin (at least for the duration of the visit to the holy place).
Another point in the comment is the Paap-Punya and rebirth cycle
First of all, this godmen thing is for people who belive in God. If you are an atheist, then separate arguments are required. But, for people who believe in God, then this concept of sins and repentance is there in every religion that I have heard of.
So, it is the FUD for every religion (as per the comment).
But, I do not think this classifies as FUD. As someone once said,
You can think whatever you want to think, but fact is fact.
Absolutely correct!!! Some of the Open source supporters do spread FUD to counter the FUD from Properietery softwares. Personally I like Open Source not because of FUD against commercial software (actually open source can also be commercial but lets not split hair here) but because of some Technical, ethical and economical reasons which we can discuss at some other time.
And teachings like cleanliness cannot be counted as FUD since with a reasonable success rate we can reproduce the same results. I think we should call a claim "an attempt of FUD" only if it cannot be proved. So all teachings definitely cannot be classified as FUD. If it can be proved then there is no uncertainty or doubt and associated fear. Well fear of proven outcome (like being ill for not being clean) can be there but that is not FUD.
If people are sane only because of fear of something (god, law etc) then we are already in trouble.
I do not agree that there are more people on the "Other" side. The number of people following/fearing some kind of god/religion/godmen is way more than number of people not following anyone.
Again I do not agree with the argument that if everyone is doing any of the wrong things then they should not talk about others. Prominent public figures (politicians/celebreties/godmen) will always be the target more than that of a common man even though their ratio of bad vs good things is very less. And since these godmen are looked as ideal role models by the followers their responsibility to be clean increases.
Accounting of Paap-PuNya, re-birth cycle cannot be proved by anyone and hence constitute as FUD and not fact in my opinion. And as you have correctly said it is applicable to all the religions which talk about god and re-birth and other such things. I somewhere heard that Buddhism does not talk about these things but I am not sure.
I have a difference of opinion with you if this classifieds as FUD. As you have correctly said "You can think whatever you want to think, but fact is fact."
If people are sane only because of fear of something (god, law etc) then we are already in trouble.
That is why one needs spirituality...since we are already deep in trouble.
I do not agree that there are more people on the "Other" side. The number of people following/fearing some kind of god/religion/godmen is way more than number of people not following anyone.
But, they are getting there...they will get there.
Again I do not agree with the argument that if everyone is doing any of the wrong things then they
should not talk about others. Prominent public figures (politicians/celebreties/godmen) will always be the
target more than that of a common man even though their ratio of bad vs good things is very less.
We call such people hypocrites. Get your house in order first...then talk about others. People living
in glass houses should not throw stones at others.
And since these godmen are looked as ideal role models by the followers their responsibility to be clean increases.
And they are clean....what gies you the idea they are not? Mind you, we are only working under the
"assumption" that these are not. 99% clean is a very good assumption. I can vouch personally for
Asharam Bapu since I've read his teachings.
Look out for my next post. Please do the homework before commenting unnecessarily. Remember the golden
rule - believe only half of what you see, but nothing that you hear.
Accounting of Paap-PuNya, re-birth cycle cannot be proved by anyone and hence constitute as FUD and not fact in my opinion.
And as you have correctly said it is applicable to all the religions which talk about god and re-birth and other such
things. I somewhere heard that Buddhism does not talk about these things but I am not sure.
That is why I say that for atheists, a different set of arguments is needed.
Re-birth is a proven fact if you take the assumption that some people have actually remembered what happened in their last birth. Google for "rebirth".
I have a difference of opinion with you if this classifieds as FUD. As you have correctly said
"You can think whatever you want to think, but fact is fact."
End of the matter. Think what you want...but don't SPECULATE. Do it yourself and then let's talk.
rule - believe only half of what you see, but nothing that you hear.
I wonder how many rebirths have you personally seen to believe it to be a proven fact
Frankly, do you really think you have to experience it personally to agree with it? I dont think so. But the explaination given for the phenomina should be logical to me even after considering my extremely limited knowledge.
The several cases pending against each godmen in various courts do not allow me to assume that 99% are clean. By homework if you mean personal investigation of each then I do not have enough resources and the motivation for the same.
And they are clean....what gies you the idea they are not?
Giving clean chit to all the godmen based on your personal experiences would be a little bold step in my opinion.
I can vouch personally for
Asharam Bapu
I have very good experience of the corporator in my area. He has been always nice to me and to a few others I know. He never asked for anything from us and still is extremely quick in taking decisions and implementing them. But I also heard of a few people who say he is corrupt and asks for bribe in certain situations. Instead of jumping to the conclusion that he is corrupt or not all I say is he has not asked bribe from me. There are chances that his political opponents might be spreading rumours. It is also possible that he is corrupt. But I cannot jump to a conclusion based on my individual experience. I hope the analogy fits in the case of Godmen also
I wonder how many rebirths have you personally seen to believe it to be a proven fact
You are the one asking for the proofs...go get a proof yourself. I am convinced (without the need for proofs). If you are not, then so be it. I'll ask you the same question 10 years later.
Then, we shall see.
And you must think that Einstein was a fool to believe in God and have read the Gita.
And, if you are so much of a proof-lover, then prove to me how it is that some people remember their births. You might want to start with something as small trying to prove what it is that differentiates a dead body from a live person. What is that energy? Prove to me that it is nature or whatever it is that you want to call its source. And if so, bottle it up and revive a dead person with that energy. Prove it.
And if you give a lame answer that it can be done, etc., then remember that I can adopt the same strategy too. Whatever proofs you are asking of me, I can ask of you too.
But, that is so stupid of me. As I said earlier, there is a certain level of intellectual needed to talk about this. One cannot teach a 5-year old kid about algebra (although there are certain cases of prodigy - but then they have that level already).
But I cannot jump to a conclusion based on my individual experience. I hope the analogy fits in the case of Godmen also.
I am not here to say whether you should jump to a conclusion or not. I am talking about myself and why do you think I am trying to convince you. I am putting forth my viewpoints. You are free to have yours. You can't convince me either.
We are digressing from the main point. The point I am talking about is whether it is good to tell people to be kind, to be truthful, to be honest, etc. And if someone preaches that way, then what is his mistake?
I wonder how many rebirths have you personally seen to believe it to be a proven fact
BTW, as can be understood, it is not possible to study and ask proofs for everything. Therefore, there is the process of belief and knowledge of what has already been done - so that there is no need to reinvent the cycle.
So, there are only 2 cases - either you believe the Vedic literature or think it is crap.
If you believe in the Vedic literature, then that knowledge about rebirth is there.
If you don't, then it means that the whole lot of writings (close to a hundred million verses including diverse subjects) were just a work of "art". If that is so, then it is indeed the work of a genius. To get it gelled so well without any flaw or contradiction, it is the biggest achievement - to be done only by some super being. If that is so, we worship and belive that super being.
Oh! I nearly missed this one:
The several cases pending against each godmen in various courts do not allow me to assume that 99% are clean.
If you see the number of godmen, the cases are very few indeed (compare it to the "other" people). Again, anyone can file a case against anyone else. So, that does not mean anything. Having a case filed is not in itself bad. I think that is to be expected in the age of Kali.
By homework if you mean personal investigation of each then I do not have enough resources and the motivation for the same.
I mean to say that if people are upset about the teachings, then they should read what the teachings are. And if you do not have the time, then you should not comment either.
If you look carefully at what I say for cases that I do not know about, I always use the word "may be". Please use those words if you want to speculate...but then the "may be" argument becomes so weak.
I am convinced (without the need for proofs).
You are contradicting with the golden rule told by yourself. In fact I have earlier said we need not experience everything personally to believe it.
And you must think that Einstein was a fool to believe in God and have read the Gita.
Einstein was a great scientist and I have a great respect for him, but does that mean I should take his word for all the cases without questioning? And I question his thoughts does not mean I think he was a fool.
And if so, bottle it up and revive a dead person with that energy. Prove it.
Even with a knowledge base of a hundred million verses, today nobody can bottle up an "Aatma" (if we assume its existance) and revive a dead person with that.
There are many things in the universe around us that are not properly explained by the entire current human knowledge base. like if light is a particle or a wave. I hope some wise persons will come up with some answer for such mysteries of life some day. I am too insignificant for these mysteries of thousands of years. But I firmly believe that one should not stop asking questions.
why do you think I am trying to convince you. I am putting forth my viewpoints. You are free to have yours. You can't convince me either.
I am myself trying to get convinced. I have an open mind and I do not have attitude that "You can't convinve me". I respect you a lot for your knowledge on various topics. Your opinions do have significant impact on my thinking process. But just as in the case of Einstein, I will not believe in something just because you say so. I will always keep on questioning to satisfy my curiosity. Ofcourse you can always say that I do not have the intelectual level required for understanding the explaination for a particular phenomina. In the past you had some very convincing viewpoints (like whether to own a car or not) but in my opinion the current thread is not one of them. but again this is my personal opinion and you will not be affected in any way if you ignore it.
here are only 2 cases - either you believe the Vedic literature or think it is crap.
I dont think these are only two cases. I can believe it partially and try to understand the remaining portion till I am convinced. I do not see life as pure black or white. There are not only shades of gray but other colours as well in between. So again as in the case of Einstein, I definitely do not think that Vedic literature is crap but at the same time I will question it if it is doubtful in my views.
We are digressing from the main point. The point I am talking about is whether it is good to tell people to be kind, to be truthful, to be honest, etc. And if someone preaches that way, then what is his mistake?
In the very first comment I said Personally I dont have anything against godmen if all they do is to ask people to act good.
Did Nana Patekar critisized them because they preach to be kind, to be truthful, to be honest, etc.?
If you look carefully at what I say for cases that I do not know about, I always use the word "may be". Please use those words if you want to speculate.
This is one more instance where you viewpoint is very convining for me. From now onwards I will also use the words "may be" when I need to speculate, even though that might make my statement weak.
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